The AV Referendum - How Will You Vote?

[Bob Bacon]

The AV referendum campaigns are picking up I thought the time might be right for a poll!

So, how will you vote?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[jase hill]

Have to say, I find it extremely strange that two forum members have voted that they will not vote? I take it that those who chose not to vote having voted here will will not complain at all when the outcome of the Av referendum is known and subsequent government is in power as a result of that vote.

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Not that suprising when you consider 34.9 % of the country failed to turn up and vote in the general election. (and that was an improvement on the previous election)

[jungle1810]

Hello,
I reckon that unless there is over a 51% turn out at the polls this new venture should be scrapped. I think and I may well be corrected by more informed members, the Welsh Assembly came into being with some thing like a 48% turn out of voters. but one area (Carmarthen ) swung the vote by a small number of votes in favour of the Welsh Assembly being formed. So 58% of voters let this happen by their apathy. Please do not doubt my motives regarding any voting system I can readily accept a majority decision whether I like it or not.But I think a majority of voters should air their views.or we are faced with a minority government? Assembly etc.
RBD aka jungle 1810

[Keith Jones 989]

Don is absolutely right! Only 25% of the people of Wales voted for devolution. I have often asked political aspirers who accost me in the street why:

1. voting is not made a legal obligation punishable by a large fine if someone does not vote (hoping that the principle of them getting more cash in their pension pots might stir them to action), and

2. why is it that on every decision based on a public vote, ever made in this country, major changes are made to our way of life after less than 50% of the people vote for it.

like questions on MPs expenses, all I ever get (and I have asked many) is 'that's the way we do it in this country'!

[Gwyn Nicholas]

The way I see it is this:

1. It is already Law that you must register to vote which makes sense as it prevents people voting more than once. To make people vote would go against their human rights and against the principles of living in a democratic society. As Jase pointed out, that does leave them in a position of total acceptance as to what follows good or bad, but that is their choice and their right.

2. We vote in politicians to make decisions for us. If only 60% of the registered population vote and 43% vote yes for a proposition (already a majority) that 43% must be added to the 40% of registered voters who abstained giving a total of 83% in favour (not literally of course only the 43% majority actually counts). The people of this country have been told time and time again, that a "no vote" still makes a difference to the outcome and if you are not voting against a proposition it is taken that you are happy to let the politicians you voted in, make the decision for you (or put another way, "go with the flow").

3. I know a few people who will not vote and their reasons vary. Cannot be bothered/They are all the same no matter who you vote for/My party wont win anyway/Dont like the candidate. I suspect the list is not limited to those "reasons". This is our form of democracy, love it or hate it this is what we have.

I think Bobs Poll above is a good indication of what we are like as a society when it comes voting for anything. Well over 90 members have been online in the last 24 hours yet only 27 people have voted and that is just a click of a button sat in the warmth of their own home. Granted this poll will not effect the future of politics in the world, but it is a question put by a respected member of this Forum community, gone unanswered by a majority. No Offence meant, just an observation.

[Keith Jones 989]

The absolute worst voter (in my opinion) is the voter who votes Labour/Conservative/LibDem.........etc 'because my family always votes that way'! The people who do that disenfranchise themselves from the thought process completely.

[Paul Hinge]

Keith,
A very interesting post. Can you expand what you mean by your statement please as I'm at a loss at what your point means? If you mean that main stream parties are the issue, then how do you see the governance of the UK and the devolved institutions paning out? Are you in favour of parties such as BNP, Monster Raving Looney Party, English Defence League, Ratepayers Party etc being drawn into main strem politics as elected representatives? I'm very interested in your views please.

[Gwyn Nicholas]

I can see where Keith is coming from. When you look at the Labour strongholds of South Wales and The Tory Bastions of the South West, where to vote anything other than "THE PARTY", is to go against everything the family has built itself on. Archaic views perhaps but still very valid. Then of course you have the fact that 18 year olds today (not all obviously) have very little interest or understanding of politics and many, if asked who Pitt the Elder was, would probably reply "Brads father". These are ideal candidates for roping in to the "old guard" where many will stay simply because it is easier than arguing for change. That may be a very cynical view on my part but I think it has a certain ring of truth.

[dutchman]

i must be a youngster then cos i fawt it wuz brads dada (had to sorry)

[Lofty-25]

In my opinion, it does not matter who gets into power. The country is in such dire striates that the elected will not be able to change the countries situation for the foreseeable future, only more job losses and more taxes, so why would the 18/19 year olds bother to vote for any party (at the moment) who can not guarantee them any sort of future (jobs and housing)

[Paul Hinge]

God Lofty I nearly took the gun out of thr cupboard your analysis was so depressing but has a big hint of truth in it!
If we all took the view that our vote was not worth using because of the mess the country is in then yes we will get the same old same old. What politics is about is priority of choice and it's the politician who says they can as closely do for you what you feel is important who you should vote for.
The referendum on AV is a chance to make your vote count because under tyhe first past the post system in many constituencies MP's are getting back to Westminster with between 25-33% of the vote. If you dont like the party or politician that keeps being sent back then AV gives you an opportunity to rank the candidates/party in order so say for instance you lived in a Labour dominated area and you realy would like you candidate whose let's say a Green Party candidate then you would put a number 1 against his name and then all the other party's in your order of preference or you my just wish to put a 1 against your choice. If as is likely to happen the candidate coming first fails to attract 50% or more of the vote at the first count then the candidate coming last drops out and their 2nd preference votes are redistributed....so if your Labour man came first with say 33% of the vote and your Green Party person came second with 30% and the last candidate had 20% of the vote and all their second choice votes were for the Green Party man then he would win. It makes sure everyones vote counts that's why many MP's in safe Labour or Tory seats dont want it because if AV was to take place they could well lose their seats on the second or third preference vote count. That's democracy when your vote really counts and your MP will need to work for you and not just toddle off to Westminster with and reap the rewards available!

Hingey

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Hingey, I could not disagree more. Your own example shows why it is not a good system.

Labour 33%

Tory 30%

Lib/Dem 20%

Others 17%

Lowest goes out first giving their second votes ie all 17% to their second choice.

Lab 3% making 37%

Tory 2% making 32%

Lib dem 12% making 32 %

still no majority so third choice of the original parties knocked out.

only 5 third choices from the other parties all for LIB DEM

Lab now 37%

Tory 32%

lib Dem now 37% Tories are now eliminated

Tory second votes - Labour or Lib Dem .

My guess given that choice Lib Dems would get more votes therfore putting a party who originated in third place by the original vote, into power.

That is my second attempt anyone know if that is right.

[sixties]

I am with you on this Gwyn.

[Keith Jones 989]

THIS IS AN ENTIRELY PERSONAL VIEW AND IS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY ROLE AS A MODERATOR ON THIS FORUM


In response to Hingey's query I have to say that the country's political system has been destroyed through lethargy by the electorate and the system of party politics we employ.

I lived in Hartlepool from 2004 to 2008 and whenever politics came up the resounding response from people involved in the discussion was 'it doesn't matter what I believe I have to vote Labour or the rest of my family will disown me' - end result, hundreds of thousands of voters choose to disenfranchise themselves and contribute nothing to the running of their country. For my part I would rather these people just didn't bother to vote, thereby making the votes of those people who are prepared to consider the options put forward by aspirants worth something.

As far as party politics is concerned I am firmly convinced that it is THE reason why this country's political system has become as corrupted as it currently is. EVERYTHING which goes on in the LibCon Coalition is based on keeping themselves in power - absolutely NOTHING to do with the wishes of the electorate (repeated denial of the promised EU referendum, a promise which, I believe, was the ONLY reason the Conservatives got so many votes, is the obvious best example of this) or 'the good of the country'. Throughout the 13 years of Labour rule it was THE PARTY which mattered and nothing else - until, latterly, when it was proved to be that elected members put their self enrichment before even THE PARTY, when it came to helping themselves to taxpayer pounds.

Finally, for my part I would like to see 646 (or however many seats that are available at the next election) independent MPs elected at the next general election. With no party line to follow there would have to be some honest negotiation between those we elect, if anything is to get 'done'. If the country and our way of life has to be destroyed (and it IS currently being destroyed) I would rather it was destroyed because 646 honest people could not come to an agreement on something/anything, as opposed to the current scheme where the destruction arises out of the political ideology of a very few basically dishonest fraudsters who got into power having lied to the electorate and then operated to the benefit of THE PARTY (notwithstanding any future revelations about even more abuse of the expenses/tax free allowances these people vote themselves) above all else.

PS - I am one of the 5 who has polled 'I will vote FOR AV'. This is not for any other reason than the current system has patently failed and if we don't change then this country is doomed. If changing from First Past The Post to Alternative Voting is the only change available then so be it!

[Gwyn Nicholas]

The political system in this country has not been destroyed. We have recently gone through a general election, that granted has not (for some) reached a perfect outcome. However the system has worked in that we now have a coalition Government. There has been no tribal warfare or calls of vote rigging or the introduction of neutral adjudicators to oversee the electoral process. It might not be perfect and has grey areas but it is democratic and who has a better system blueprint that we can follow.

Who people vote for and why, is up to that individual, it is their right to choose. Why should they measure up to some standard or level of reasoning before they cast their vote. It is not a requirement within a democratic society and it would verge on some sort of elitism if it were considered.

Without party politics, where you have mainstream partys who can work together in Government and a solid and competetive opposition, you have Communism and tin pot Republics led by the likes of tyrants like Ghadaffi in Libya and Castro in Cuba. Whatever your misgivings, I doubt you would wish that as the future of Britain. There are crooks in every walk of life and in positions of trust, the trick is to catch them and send them down like any other crook.

I am trying to imagine 640+ of the most honest men and women in this country sitting down and agreeing to anything at all, without some sort of guidelines and leadership. Put two women in the same kitchen for one whole day and you will see why 640 individuals would never get anything done.

To say that this coalition is doing everything it can to stay in power is a strange statement, as all I hear is disdain for all the cuts that are happening and bitterness toward them. They would be misguided if they were to think they were winning the popularity vote.

As for the AV system that of course the individuals choice and I believe that many people do not really understand it (not sure if I do). That alone is enough to make people stay with what they know and that does not make them unworthy. I personally will not vote for the AV for the reasons shown in my post above (that is my understanding of how the system would work). I may be wrong and welcome being put on the right track.

Incidently, did they not hang a monkey in Hartlepool thinking it was a French or Spanish spy.

[Dai 55]

Gwyn/Paul
can you answer me one question each year the BNP party is getting more votes WHY?
They say the English defence leauge will have 200,000 members by the end of the year,is the country worried about something,or are the people saying we have had enough?

Dai 55

[Gwyn Nicholas]

I dont know the answer Dai, but I suspect it is down to the immigration situation in the country and the fact that previous Governments and so far this one have done nothing to alay the fears of those people. I believe the term we used in the military, was "voting with ones feet". Pathetic as it may sound, I have done the same by writing to Mr Cameron recently about how angered I am about the cuts in our Forces and that he and his party no longer have my support. Small coal to him but I have made my individual stand. Will I run off and join the BNP, of course not.

You may have got the impression from my posts that I am totally happy with the way things are in this country, I can assure you that I am not. I do however believe in democracy and the democratic way of life that we enjoy in this country. Everything must evolve including politics or it will become a thing of the past and obsolete however, change for change sake as I believe this AV system is (only as I understand it ) is not the way to do it. If it is voted in, I will accept it as the democratic wish of the people. I will not scream from the rooftops "you are all wrong because I am right"

NO party in this country whilst it remains democratic, will ever stop immigration totally and no party will defy Europe as long as we remain partners. The BNP and the other radical partys will never get the support needed to actually run this country so if a few frustrated radicals turn to them to vent their frustrations so be it, but just like me and my letter to the PM....small coal.

[jungle1810]

Hello all,
"Smile Hingey you are on Candid Camera, aka BBC Wales. You struck a friendly pose for the cameras.Hingey further to your love of the AV system on the first count the politician who come second can often win the seat, Manifestly unfair.
I have often heard the quotation "She and comparisons are odious" but compare the following facts.
I have some thoughts for the forum members to consider. America is run by some 535 elected members 100 Senators and The House of representatives have 435 members.America has a population of some 307, 006, 550 as of July 2009. America has a land mass of 9,826,630 Sq KM or 3,794, 083 Sq miles.
The UK send 650 members to the House of Commons, plus 792 members to the House of Lords (as well as 39 who are on leave of absence,or other wise disqualified from voting. The UK has a landmass of 11,056 Sq Km or 94,251 SQ Miles The United Kingdom has a population of 61,133,205 people. So regardless of how the UK votes do we really need some thing like 3 times the governance that run the U.S.A.America has approximately 5 times our population. So the founding Fathers of the US of A were way ahead of us even all those years ago when the Constitution was signed.
In the United States every vote counts and are only counted once not two or three times.
how about RBD's idea of fair play on the voting system. First cut the House of Lords down to 350 members, Cut the House of Commons down to 340 members. When the votes are counted allocate them to the main parties as a percentage of the turn out, and let the hierarchy of each party select who they want from this system (tongue in cheek of course)
Regards to all my readers as ever, RBD aka jungle1810

[Keith Jones 989]

'The political system in this country has not been destroyed.'

That is not what I said, Nic. I said 'the country and our way of life is being destroyed' by the political system currently in use.

Hanging spies - it was a monkey, because it was believed to be French - he was, it is reported, two or three centimetres taller than Nicolas Zarkosy.

[Gwyn Nicholas]

[QUOTE=Keith Jones 989;55658]THIS IS AN ENTIRELY PERSONAL VIEW AND IS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY ROLE AS A MODERATOR ON THIS FORUM


In response to Hingey's query I have to say that the country's political system has been destroyed through lethargy by the electorate and the system of party politics we employ.

Your words Keith and whilst I dont totally agree with your amended post, I can now see where you are coming from.

[Paul Hinge]

Don, And your version is fair.....my God then we would have a full blown dictatorship!!

My question to you is this as a person whose MP and AM both got in last time with less than 50% of the votes cast. Do you see that as a fair system? Because by all the differences people may have I cannot subscribe to anyone representing me when they have only attracted less than 50% of the vote that's why AV....although not perfect, does offer a value to everyones vote. People have died to ensure we all could vote and have a country that we can express our views. This is why we now have in the 21 st century a version of the "rotten boroughs" system of Labour and Tory safe seats that cannot be prized from them under the archane system we operate now. Oh! by the way we here in Wales already operate an AV version for the list candidates for ther National Assembly elections so its nothing new to us we've used it since 1999. Finally when I beat the Plaid candidate in 2008 on a 64% turnout I attracted 53% of the vote at the first count so I feel vindicated that my election was a fair reflextion on the choice made by the people who voted.

Hingey

[jungle1810]

Hingey,
My conclusion on a new voting system in my last political thread was purely tongue in cheek. One of the main considerations of the AV system is that some one who is in second or even third place after the first returns are counted is quite liable to win the seat because of the movement of other peoples second or third choice of candidate, I did at one time think of only voting for one candidate but that will be circumvented by the use of replacing my vote with other peoples choice of second and third candidates Just how many times does a candidate want the votes counted? My other point I tried to make is that we have far too many politicians ruling the country, in relation to the size of the UK. In my thread I did not mention one man one vote, or the fact of devolution in Wales Scotland,and Ireland, vastly increases the number of politicians in the UK. Another bone of contention is how many times have we been promised a referendum on the European issue, and I reckon as a matter of top priority that the ECHR needs a clean sweep. Let us have a declaration of British rights which we have been promised for many moons, and we can then control our own destiny. Apart from all the devolved nations I mentioned, it is a proven fact that 80% of all legislation in the UK stems from Europe. And the European Commission has not had it's accounts passed since it's inception. Can you or I run a business in a like manner. The answer to that one is a resounding NO. The only legislation the House of Commons can pass is on the Armed Forces and our budget (or what is left of it) after giving aid to China Pakistan et al. Let us remember an old adage," CHARITY BEGINS AT HOME" I also think that compulsory voting is a non runner, how easy is it to misuse the ballot paper and deliberately spoil your vote? In passing I must thank you for your views and having served in local politics presumably with the vigour and dedication you apply to other issues. I now appreciate your sincerity on political matters because of my deep suspicions of Politicians and all things political.
Regards as ever Brian aka RBD &jungle1810

[Dai 55]

MPs who can trust theme?
Thats why people in Britain are p----d off,bunch of con men/women who dont care about joe public only there own pocket,expenses my ****,light bulbs,dishwashers,morgages,hair perms,taxis,DUCK HOUSE,(what a joke that was)affairs,it goes on and on,when are we going to see something positive for the country,David Cameron WHAT A COMPLET JOKE,Taxes sky high,wages so low,petrol gone through the roof,pensioners just about surviving,NHS working on the bread line,if only i would have known before you came into power,and Nick Glegg well say no more?

Dai 55

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Dai, I think we all share your anger and frustration at the situation that we are in, but this lot didn't get us where we are right now. It is too soon to say whether what they are doing will solve the problem or make it worse. We cannot know for sure whether the last lot would have done the same with a slightly different format. Either way something had to be done because we were heading toward a meltdown.

Face it, as a country we have overspent, enjoyed the good life, lived on tick (credit cards) for the last ten years or more. Basically as a nation we have lived well above our means. We have done this as a nation despite a number of well respected financial experts warning government in the last five or six years that it was not sustainable. It was in newspapers for all to see, did we all take notice and curb our spending reduce our credit cards - no. I believe the average national household debt (not including mortgages) in 2009 was £9,600. Obviously that is an average not each and every household. Who's fault is it, that people run up such debt, the banks, the government, at what point do individuals take responsibility for their own actions instead of looking for someone else to blame.

I dont remember Cameron or anyone else saying they had a magic wand to make it alright overnight, if he could have we wouldn't really have had that much of a problem to begin with. I am not happy with the situation we have right now and I am angry particularly at the cuts in our Forces but I dont blame the people who have been in power for 5 minutes and forget the the miscreants who went before them - that would be unjust. I reserve my judment until this lot have been in power for a couple years and at least been given a chance. The fact is, if they are worse than the last lot...we really are in a fix!

[Gerrycc943]

Hi members,

Great dialogue throughout the thread but let's not digress from Bob's original question at the start of the thread: "How will you vote?"

For info, 62 members have read this thread but only 36 have completed the poll!!

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Gerry, I for one found the dialogue interesting and informative and have indeed actualy worked out how the AV system works. The question raised by Bob was under discussions and that is what I feel we have had with due respect and without hostility. Without this sort of discussion from those who are willing to participate and make a contribution, the post could have been summed up with 36 dots. No disrespect Gerry but some people are trying to make something of anything on the Forum if it is boring or uninteresting to some then they need not read it. I dont agree with all I read and I know for sure people disagree with me but I find others views on subjects interesting, sometimes educational and even on occasion quite bizzare. That is why I am a regular reader and long may it continue.

[Thom15]

I'm one of the 62 that has read this thread with great interest but have not voted because .... living in Canada I would have no idea who to vote for and until I read this thread I did not know about The AV Referendum. So at least I have been educated a little on what's happening in the UK. By the way, is the Monster Raving Loony Party still going? Lord Sutch can have my vote any day, ... although he's dead now so it would not do him much good.
Dilwyn

[Bob Bacon]

This debate has already generated some very interesting comments and views, which was my intention ... to rouse members to activity and forum participation.

When you look at the reasons for having this referendum you have to say it is one of the most unusual referendums in the whole history of referendums.

For this change in the voting system for UK elections from First Past the Post (FPTP) to AV is something that neither party in the Coalition government actually wants.

The Tories don’t want any change at all and are actively campaigning for a No vote. While the LibDems really want to change our electoral system to Proportional Representation (PR). Their preferred system is the Single Transferable Vote (STV).

Yet the LibDems have ended up campaigning for a system that is not PR in any way whatsoever. All to get into coalition with the Tories. You couldn’t make it up!

Anyway, thanks to those that have shared their views .... The Poll closes on Monday so there is still time to post your own views on this matter.

[jungle1810]

Hello All,
As a point of interest The Labour Government some years ago required Roy Jenkins to review the FPTP and the AV system of voting. His final verdict was that the FPTP was as good as any thing and did not think the AV system any good at all. So not much has changed over the years.The present UK voting system is quite difficult to improve on. I have enjoyed the intelligent views of the forum members input and they have raised many points ( Hingey Included) I still think we are well over burdened with politicians.
Regards as ever RBD aka jungle1810

[Gerrycc943]

Hi Nick,

Guessed you'd respond.

I consider all your posts quite interesting, full of well thought out substance and good reading - you fire from the hip and I would hope that you continue to do so.

Contrary to my last post and bearing in mind that this thread closes on Mon 18th, I do have a question that has been posed to me that perhaps you and the AV wizards on the forum might be able to answer.

If the AV does get a yes vote, what impact does this have on Postal Voters in the UK and Service Personnel deployed overseas, who are eligible to vote, regarding re-ballots?



Gerry, I for one found the dialogue interesting and informative and have indeed actualy worked out how the AV system works. The question raised by Bob was under disscussions and that is what I feel we have had with due respect and without hostility. Without this sort of discussion from those who are willing to participate and make a contribution, the post could have been summed up with 36 dots. No disrespect Gerry but some people are trying to make something of anything on the Forum if it is boring or uninteresting to some then they need not read it. I dont agree with all I read and I know for sure people disagree with me but I find others views on subjects interesting, sometimes educational and even on occasion quite bizzare. That is why I am a regular reader and long may it continue.

[Gwyn Nicholas]

I for one do not have a clue Gerry. I have only just got my meagre amount of grey matter around the basics of it, to try and take in any more could lead to a breakdown in my case. Which is why I made the point that many would not vote for it. It seems foolish to me that anyone would say yes to anything they did not fully understand, though I suppose there are many who do not read the smallprint in contracts who may do the same here. Perhaps those who have said they will vote for it can give you an explanation, I would be interested to read it as long as my head neither implodes or explodes. Good luck with that one mate.