rugby programmes

[dutchman]

i don,t know if it is of any interest but since my heart attack i started a new little hobby , collecting rugby programmes and bought one the other day from a rugby match in seremban malaya. the programme arrived this morning and i was surprised to see in the center pages the band & drums of the 2nd battalion royal welch fusiliers by kind permission of lt-col w.l.r benyon were beating the retreat after the match . the match in question was negri sembilan v perak at station padang 22nd january 1954.

[jungle1810]

Hello Dutchman,
Re the rugby programme of the 2nd Battalion in Malaya, I think you must have put the wrong date in. The Battalion were due to serve in Korea, but the peace treaty was signed and the terms of the peace treaty precluded fresh troops and ordinance landing in Korea, we had our advance party in Japan. As a result of the treaty being signed the 2nd were re-routed to serve in Malaya and we joined the 26th Gurkha Brigade which was in turn part of the 19th Gurkha Division.This posting took effect from September 1954.
Regards Don

[dutchman]

no definitely 22nd jan 1954 if i knew how id upload you a pic

[Paul Hinge]

I have members of the Band Association still alive who were serving in the 2nd battalion Band at that time I will ask them if they remeber the event.

Hingey

[dutchman]

i dont kow if these other names will help , the referee was a major a.n. griffiths and the touch judges were csm freeman and lcpl bennett. if you want the names of the players (obviousely not the locals ) i will oblige

[dutchman]

can anyone tell me how to upload pic on here and i will show the cover and middle pages

[dutchman]

19551956
sorry me again , if its any help its for the farleigh robertson trophy and was sponsored by the negri sembilan/malacca rugby football union
okay heres the cover and center pages showing the band

[Dai72]

Send me your address and i will forward the programmes i have. though i will be in most of them.

[jungle1810]

Hello Dutch,
I saw your pics but they do not seem right. I have checked the 2nd Battalion Staff lists for 1954 to1955 and from 1956 to 1957. I cannot find the names of Lt Griffiths or C.S.M. Mason in these lists the L/Cpl would not be in these lists any way.In the Perak team it shows Shea when in fact a Fusilier O' Shea played rugby for the Battalion in the time limits I mentioned and he also played for Cardiff in the first 15,in my reply to your e mail We did have a CSM Freeman but it does not appear to be the one on the programme. The 2nd battalion were in Germany to the best of my knowledge in early January 54. The plot thickens. Regards Don

[dutchman]

richard it does not state in the porgramme that the officials were rwf only that the band played after the game.
i just bought another one from hong kong 1992 the proffesions sevens and funnily the royal regiment of wales are playing , not relevant but jus thought id let you know

[dutchman]

apologies richard on doing a bit more research and recieving 3 more programmes form the same source , it seems that the match was actually played in padang singapore and not malaya as i first thought , the 3 i have just bought were singapore and it clearly states padang singapore on one featuring the 1st fijian regiment 12th feb 1955 and one other is combined services malaya and singapore v 1st fijian regt played at jalan besar 1st december 1954 .i am trying to find out where this is as we speak, but maybe it being combined swrvices there maybe some rwf included.

[jungle1810]

Hello Dutch,
The Jalan Besar stadium is in Singapore (Kallang Area) It was built in 1932 and seats 6,000 people.It is the home of the Singapore football club.The original stadium was closed and rebuilt in 1999.The Jalan Besar sports complex is in an area enclosed on the western side by TYRWHITT ROAD,the north end has a boundary with HORNE ROAD, The eastern boundary is by GEORGES AVENUE, the south side is in KITCHENER ROAD. It is quite conceivable that the game played in December 1954 (Combined Services team Malaya & Singapore)did contain some RWF men, and even the band of 2/RWF.Thats all for now folks.
Regards RBD

[jungle1810]

Hello Dutch,
I have doubts about the 2nd RWF band playing in Singapore in early January 1954,the 2nd were in Germany then. As for the Welsh Regiment band I have positively no idea of where the Welsh or their band were in January 1954
Regards Don

[Paul Hinge]

Gentlemen,
I have received the followin from a Band Member who should the Band have been there would have been beating the retreat!

I remember beating retreat at Seremban, but it was'nt on that date.
We never sailed for Malaya till august 54.
Regards Dave Lewis.

The plot thickens even more!!!

Hingey

[dutchman]

yes very strange but as you can see by the pics it clearly states "the band and drums of the 2nd bn. the royal welch fusiliers will beat retreat after the match " i cannot see it being a mistake but who knows.
just in case people cant make it out the front say's.
negri sembilan
versus
perak
station padang
saturday, 22nd jan. 1954

[jungle1810]

Hello Dutch,
In fairnes to me Hingey and your good self the programme did not state when the 2/RWF band would beat retreat.? I have a photo of the 2nd Battalion W.O's and Sjts mess taken in Ogbourne Saint George in July 1954, after the Queen presented new colours to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd battalions RWF, and the members of the band of the second are on this photo so the time shown has to be a mistake but it is not your fault.As I mentioned in an earlier e mail the plot thickens
regards Don

[dutchman]

sorry richard it clearly states at the bottom of the programme they will beat the retreat after the game , maybe they were a tribute band (tongue in cheek)

[Dai 55]

Hi Jungle,
how do you know yours is not a mistake.

Dai 55

[Paul Hinge]

Dai

Because he's absolutely correct as Dave Lewis who was serving with 2nd Battalion Band at the time confirms this!!!

Hingey

[Dai 55]

Hingey,
sorry mate sticking with the Dutchman on this one,dont see how a progrmme can be so wrong,when i am proven wrong,not word of mouth documented evidence,i will buy you a beer next time i see you,

Good luck
Dai 55

[Paul Hinge]

See you in Wrexham 4th September and bring plenty of money as Don and I can drink a bit!!! Regt records also prove us correct!

Hingey

[jungle1810]

Hello Hingey & Dutchman,
What do you reckon on these rugby programmes? On being awoken by the condors and vultures that abound in Bridgend my thoughts turned to Dutchman and his hobby.I was wondering if Dutchman has thought about starting another hobby How about stamp collecting perhaps??
Regards Don

[Paul Hinge]

Don

There are some dodgy stamps out there also!

Hingey<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

[dutchman]

lol nice one richard , i have checked with another collector who has exactly the same programme and has had it for years and his is the same , mmm the plot thickens

[John Turner]

Just wondering, how do you keep your collection?

Do you get any framed? (framing is what I do - and teach) - If you do then it's sometimes best, especially for prized pieces, to frame a copy, because the printing ink will not be lightfast and the paper will not be archival and the whole thing will self-destruct with the aid of UV light and bad (standard) framing methods and the very best framing methods will only slow the process down.

If you have a scanner that can take the size - use it.

[Dai 55]

Hingey,
the odds have just shortened maybe you will be buying me a beer,and i drink lots,

Dai 55

[dutchman]

john i put them in programme covers then in a folder. to be quite honest none of them are really valuable the best (in my opinion ) i had was the 1953 wales v all blacks for those in the know the last time we beat them but i had a deal where an ex ball boy from the game swapped me a bundle (roughly 25 50's and 60's progs ) for it the downside is ive spent the last 3 months on e bay trying to get a replacement , you live and learn . the sannner i have takes all sozes and i scan them to computer but that is just to save me looking through them manually.

[rikoshea]

dutchman I work at the millenium stadium mate if you want programmes for up and coming events ill do my best if you want any.. remember England and Ireland home in the six nations this year plus the autum series..just let me know.

[Bob Lloyd]

I think Negri Sembilan prog date could be a misprint (dodgy printers in the Far East you know!). According to Vol VI of Regimental Records 2nd Bn moved to Negri Sembilan area between 8 - 10 Nov 54. Winky Benyon handed over command on 2 Apr 55. (See chronology page xxxiv and xxxv. Maybe match took place on 22 January 1955, not 1954. Page 201 of Records mentions that rugby was played so despite being on operations, like NI, maybe Band and a few others played/supported rugby. According to page 201 Brig Anthony Vivian, then Captain, and Sgt Russell played cricket for Negri Sembilan, 2nd Bn rugby team reached semi final of FARELF cup and several Fusiliers achieved greatness in the boxing ring.

[Clive Rees (08)]

Can you get tickets for next years Scottish match????


dutchman I work at the millenium stadium mate if you want programmes for up and coming events ill do my best if you want any.. remember England and Ireland home in the six nations this year plus the autum series..just let me know.

[jungle1810]

Hello Dutch & 55,
There have been a couple of posts regarding this rugby match. I still maintain the date shown as being when the 2nd Battalion band played at half time definately cannot be correct. Other answers are more to the point regarding the Regimental History.The second took part in most sports whilst in Malaya. Re the cricket team A certain cricketer made the fastest 100+ against the second battalion cricket team his name was Ted Dexter. The boxing team were very good as well Thomas 54 went on to become a FARELF champion. Fusiliers Shapcott, Duggan, Thomas 54, and Rowley all went forward to the Command individual championships. I was also asked about an O'Shea who played rugby for the battalion and what his fore name was and I think it was Mike. Re the rugby programmes I have a few and one that stands out is when the All Blacks played the "LIONS" as regards the date all I can remember is that a certain Willie McBride played and the pen pictures of both teams are signed by all the members of both teams. I think it is in my Archives(loft).
Regards RBD

[dutchman]

if wj mcbride played it could be 71 74 maybe and they are like diamonds to a collector as the lions won in new zealand and then 74 in south africa

[Paul Hinge]

Dai

I think that my Band member who was serving at that time and the information Bob Lloyd has posted firmly puts your hand in your pocket on 4th Sept see you in the Fusilier around 2pm.

Hingey

[dutchman]

just want to throw this one as i have no idea if they did or not , did the band back then do tours like they do now , if so maybe that would explain it maybe they weredoing a recce prior to the regiment being based there ? dont know but maybe an explanation .

[Paul Hinge]

Terry,
That's what I've been saying the Band was in Wiltshire at the time knowone was on a reece or anything of that sort. Bob Lloyd's thread on this tells the story and my Band association member who was serving with the 2nd Battalion Band at that time also confirms that the programme is wrong in its date!

Hingey

[jungle1810]

Hello,
In December 1952 the 2nd were moved to Germany, then early in 1953 the battalion were informed they were going to Korea in the summer of 1954. The advance party left England for Japan/Korea,on the 15th of May. So up to the 15th of May the 2nd never had any members of the band doing KAPE tours much less travelling for guest appearances to the far east. If some one were to ask how much it costs to hire the full regimental band for this so called beating the retreat it would frighten any treasurer of most rugby clubs or stadia to death. So I am positive none of the 2nd battalion band were any where near Singapore and certainly did not cross the causeway. Also on nearing Korea we had a message to send another advance party to Singapore as we were unable to land in Korea.This instruction came on the 26th of August 1954.I am quite positive all the second remained in the afore mentioned postings I have listed. Apart from committing these facts from memory, I have taken the precaution 0f checking my facts regarding all the movements and postings as per regimental History volume vi written by Brigadier J.P.Riley DSO.Re Hingey and his request for a drink I have a prediliction for white rum and coke ( White lightning 67%Proof distilled by Wray & Nephew Ltd Jamaica.)
Regards RBD