Generals told to travel 2nd class

[jcj]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7078834.ece

All armed forces personnel must now sit in standard class on trains and planes, whatever their rank, under a new rule that has provoked anger across the political parties.

But MPs are still entitled to first-class train travel, and there is no plan to restrict first-class travel for government ministers.

[Braz]

It's a damn cheek when you think that these Generals etc are not allowed to travel 1st class yet MPs who cream off every penny under the sun can. Something definately wrong somewhere. Damn cheek of it. Braz:arghh:

[LarsA]

In the article a junior defence minister said something like "it's about getting value for money".

A good way to think for the taxpayer come next election aswell:-)

/Lars

[Gwyn Nicholas]

I dont think any of them should travel First Class at public expense. If they want to upgrade, fair enough but they, should pay the difference. The days of the "Raj" are long gone and there is no need for this sort of class segregation for MPs and Officers of any Rank. (at public expense) They are ALL public servants. They work for the people of this country and are salary paid by the people of this country. They are not better (in any shape or form) than the people of this country, and it is not before time that he rug is well and truly pulled from under this elitist regime.

[LarsA]

If they are out doing duty for the country, they should be able to travel in a way to make the most out of time spent on the way to their object for the day. They are out to do work in the interest of the realm, and should be able to travel and work at the same time.

Of course, Animal Farm egalitarian principles could be applied. But that would be to the detriment of the services. A good lesson on how to get a great deal of less value for marginally less money involved.

ATB,
Lars

[Keith Jones 989]

Major General Peter de la Billiere, when he was GOC South East District, banned anybody from his district headquarters travelling First Class on the trains, as a cost saving, after NMS was introduced. He was, therefore, way ahead of his time!

[Gwyn Nicholas]

People from all walks of life travel daily and indeed work whilst travelling whether first or second class. To suggest that an MP or a General needs or deserves a better quality of seat or surroundings is exactly the elitist snobbery that I am talking about. How much work do you think a General (not his Aide) or an MP actually does on route to a jolly in the Capital. Indeed, maybe the sort of work to which you refer - "for the Realm" should not be done in a public place (1st or 2nd Class). That is perhaps how briefcases containing sensitive papers, have in recent times, been left in taxis or on trains etc. I cannot comment on your reference to "Animal farm" as, although I have heard of the film, I have not actually seen it! (TIC) You may not be aware Lars but in this country, we are suffering a recession and cuts are being made everywhere. Why do you think that money regardless how little, should continue to be wasted whilst our services ie our Armed Forces, National Health, Police etc continue to face cuts? Your lot may have it right in Sweden but here we do not. Claims for DUCK houses springs to mind.

[Paul Hinge]

Two very interesting posts fro Gwyn and Lars.

Given the abominable way some politicians in Westminster have manufactured a fees office to suit their needs I wholly concur with Gwyn on this score.
However, there is a caveat to this as Lars so correctly points out. If you are travelling to where ever on business that is the concern of the Country and need to work as you travel then there maybe a case for an upgrade at public expense for Generals and MP's alike, bit this should not be the norm.

As an elected representative I have a very strict regime on expense claims that is not only scrutinised by the public monthly, but by the Audit Office on behalf of the Public. This however, is not the case for MP's, Lords, Ministers of Government, Assembly Members in Wales, Members of the Scottish Parliament or the Northern Ireland Assembly.
Is there something wrong here? Double standards or what?
Let's not tar them all with the same brush but if we have to account for everything on a very strict table of allowable expenses.

Hingey

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Paul, as you say you are an "elected representitive" as are MPs. You are not head-hunted nor pleaded with to do it. In lay terms, you applied for a job and got it, no more, no less (Civil servants as a whole not you personally). If you take away all the perks (not legitimate expenses) do you think there will be less :
a. Applicants for MPs and Council seats.
b. Lesser inteligent/qualified people canvassing for votes.

I think not but if I am wrong, then the people who do the job now are not in the job for the right reasons and we would be well rid. The greedy may very well leave, but the majority I feel, take the perks just because they happen to be there.

As far as Generals are concerned, how many Brigadiers/Colonels do you think, would turn down a promotion to General just because First Class travel is no longer available.

We keep hearing about cuts, well let us see those who are already well rewarded and are at the higher echelons, lead the way. The poor of this country are getting poorer and the well off turn a blind eye and take more and more. I want a fairer deal for all in this country and not the elitist few and if that means starting with Generals..so be it!

[Paul Hinge]

Gwyn I think you've got the wrong end of the stick mate. I'm agreeing with you that if they travel they should do it by the cheapest possible means.

However, they can pay to upgrade if they so wish. My only question was that if they needed to work on a train or plane for a long journey that was on behalf of our country then perhaps an upgrade at public expense might be justified but that’s the exception not the rule!

On my own business if I travel to London I go 1st Class from Birmingham because I can work on my laptop undisturbed by people talking on mobiles, listening to IPods that everyone else can hear and sitting in seats that were made for Twiggy and not people of my rotund proportions.

Hingey

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Sorry Paul, I thought that when you commented about "double standards" (the Lords etc), I thought you were advocating that lower level civil servants should get the same as the greedy higher level civil servant.

I do take your point about travelling steerage or cattle class with noisy gits and mobile phones. I travel club class on the ferry to France each year for the same reason, but I pay the extra for the privilege. (not being a snob just a poor sailor)

I see that I got some of my wish this morning. MPs can no longer travel 1st class at public expense . They have lost a few other perks too and not before time.

Now we need to tackle a fairer Tax system and sort out crime (at every level regardless how "petty") and we are on our way. It has only taken thirteen years but things are happening.

[Paul Hinge]

Gwyn

Yep the MP's expense saga has come home to roost!

Not being biased (yes I am), I listened and watched the Chancellor's in waiting debate last night on Channel 4 and even the media had to agree today that when it came to fairer taxes and credibility Vince Cable won the debate hands down!

Crime is an issue we have all got to do something about. I'm extremely lucky living in a rural area and do not experience the levels of crime towns and cities do and indeed those rural areas where good roadways are not far away. However, drugs and ASB are very much on the increase and we have to nip this in the bud ASAP. More visual policing is the answer not PCSO's who have no powers of arrest but police on the beat. That will mean more money from central government to the various police forces and central government cutting down on other areas that are just tinkering with the niceties in society.

Hingey

[MIKE31]

As a civil servant and someone who can travel first class on air travel over
2 1/2 long and trains no matter how long the journey, I feel I should be in on this touchy subject. I have been a civil servant for 15 years and have never booked myself a first class journey, I work with lots who see it as a right. I do not see the need under any circumstance to expect people on low income (or any income) to pay for my favoured travel through their taxes. If people feel the need to work on a PC in peace and quiet then plug in some earphones and listen to your favourite piece of music, I do, works a treat. The phrase I need to work and talk with collegues whilst travelling is a cop out in real terms! The millions that is wasted on first class travel in the MOD could be better spent on those who are risking their lives under dreadfull conditions and working under very tight budgets no matter what the government say. If you're paying yourself, good luck to you.

Mike 31

[LarsA]

We have seen the effects of the recession in my country aswell. My municipality lost 5% of it's tax revenues last year, which does not pass unmarked. It hurts actually. And of course everyone on the municipality payroll is expected to contribute in using the taxpayers money effeciently. On my part, I have not submitted a travel expense bill the last three years. But to demand it of everyone would be overdoing as I see it.

Regarding travel, I expect everyone to use the most cost-effecient and climate-friendly way of travel. But as long train-journeys are conducted on time the tax-payer foots the bill for, highly paid officials are expected to be more than a parcel for transport. I expect them to work. And the difference, at least in my county, is that in 1st class train you have internet access, a more quiet surrounding and don't have to wander about for long distances getting a meal. 2nd class, just transporting yourself, shutting out the surroundings by music or a preferred book, not expected to work that's fine, but I would not squander my taxpayers money by forbidding leading officials to travel in a way that get's more quality out of their expensive working hours. And yes, I would expect them to use their judgement. By prescribing a certain mode of travel no matter the circumstance I feel I would give them a vote of lack of confidence in their judgement, and then why employ them in the first case?

/Lars

[ap1]

I think one of the problems in the UK is that we have lost confidence in our leaders both politically and militarily. We have senior officers who send our soldiers into battle incorrectly equipped. The fault of the politicians, but nevertheless, the generals allowed it to happen. They then see out their service, retire with massively generous benefits and then write a book about how bad the situation was when they were in high office and of course make even more money from the book sales. We also had reports in the recent past of senior officers spending lavish sums of public money on their offices/homes, whilst many army families were living in squalor, this type of thing strikes a chord with the public.

Additionally Lars we are constantly being hit with new revelations about our political class milking the system beyond belief. Most of the adult population in the UK feel disgust at the way their elected representatives(of all parties) have abused the country's finances. It will take years to persuade us that they are working for their nations good. I'm afraid our military leaders are a casualty of this.

You may be right about them needing a quiet place to work when travelling, but i'm afraid in this present climate of distrust, they would be foolish to complain to much. They will just have to join the rest of the UK and accept a little hardship during these austere times. I would suggest they will say little, no doubt they are in receipt of some especially generous benefits that the wider public are not aware of. The less the newspapers look at them the better.......keeping it well below the radar is the way forward!!!!!

:radar:

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Lars
Of course I know that your country is also suffering a recession and did not mean to sound like we are on our own. We are all in the same boat. I have to say that your faith/trust in your leading officials is admirable and I hope they are deserving of your trust.

I am not sure if you follow our politics/news, but you may be aware that four of our "leading officials" have recently been filmed offering their services to the highest outside bidder to have influence in Parliament at a staggering £3000-5000 PER DAY! This work of course will be carried out during their normal MP working hours. One of them was on paid sick leave whilst being filmed. I conceed you have a point about employing these people in the first place

Your point on getting work out of your official whilst travelling. How do you make sure the officials do work whilst travelling? Many people suffer from motion sickness and cannot read and write whilst moving, would you sack them? As you say, "trust in your leading officials". Read para two again my friend.

[nasher546]

I dont think any of them should travel First Class at public expense. If they want to upgrade, fair enough but they, should pay the difference. The days of the "Raj" are long gone and there is no need for this sort of class segregation for MPs and Officers of any Rank. (at public expense) They are ALL public servants. They work for the people of this country and are salary paid by the people of this country. They are not better (in any shape or form) than the people of this country, and it is not before time that he rug is well and truly pulled from under this elitist regime.

Totally agree Gwyn, they are no different to any other public servant. The Company I work for pay expenses to travel and it is second class whatever your status in the Company. If you want to upgrade that is fine however it is at your own expense.

[LarsA]

Gwyn, the MP benefits scandal hit the news in Sweden too. And we have the bad eggs here as well, there has been some overly creative tax deductions, the MPs that tries too charge for their services and also the odd criminal behaviour. And I am sure there is more scandals to be found out, both in Sweden and the UK.

Of course they give a bad name to most people in public office or employ. The story comes to mind about the boy coming home from school telling his Daddy: "Today we had to tell the class what our daddy does for a living". - And what did you tell them, son? "I said you played the piano in the local whorehouse." - My god, what made you say that? "Well, I couldn't tell them you are a politician, could I?

The problem is finding rules that stop the misusers or criminals but don't obstruct efficient ways of working. Easier said than done, I know.

As to an official prone to motion sickness, I would demand that he/she travels 1st class to try to avoid arriving to a meeting and puke over the other participants first thing:-)

We may not come to an agreement over this, but I wish you the best of luck in the national clean up over all benefit scandals I have read about.

ATB,
/Lars